The Nutty Professor
09-12-2007, 08:00 AM
OK guys it old home week time. I'm shifting some of my stuff here from else where to get a fresh take on it. Some, maybe most, have already seen this stuff but if it sparks even one new thread or idea I think it's worth it plus you can read back on some of the things/ideas you had and go "Oh yeah that was a great idea" and go in the garage and do it or "Man that was really a shizzling dumb questionhunter1". AND AWAY WE GO!chief_rocka
Nutty:I’ve been reading over and over again about the lack of umph from the stock motors. So I’ve been driving around on the web looking for tech we can adopt or at least get a few idea’s from. One of the first things I learned is that lightening the internal moving parts is the first thing race engine builders do to gain some horses. I read through a Formula One site for a few tricks from the masters. A thread I thought hit the nail on the head was about the material that makes up a connecting rod. Titanium is the metal of chose because they can not use beryllium or carbon fiber. The thread started as a discussion about aluminum as a connecting rod. It went on to say that motorcycles have already been produced with aluminum.
"Old Triumph 650s had aluminum con rods. Production Honda NSX has Ti con rods. Virtually all other road cars use high strength steel."
In the end what I trying to get across is we can’t expect to buy anything from Japan or be able to afford it for that matter. But designing and making the parts is basically out of the question. Unless someone in here has some seriously mad skills...I think I heard a pin drop. The Final Option (That was a great movie) is to find parts that will interchange with our little super bikes. What I mean is this-A friend of mine was working on a race bike rebuild and he had a second engine torn down on the same bench. It was the night before he had to leave for the track if he wanted to be on time. He had to reassemble the head he had just ported and polished. He put the head together and placed it on a engine already on a trolley he carried to the track (He got tired of last minute repairs to a motor on the ground) and rolled it into the trailer. He was planning on finishing at the track when he had more help. When he got to the point of install he remember he hadn’t degree the cams so he had his buddy set it at a pre-determined point. The buddy stopped after he took off the cam cover and asked what kind of valves had been installed because they didn’t look right. My bud blow him off and told him they were running out of time. Bike was put together and he raced the whole weekend. He later said that he was amazed at the rebuild it felt like a completely different bike. The power can on sharper? His next plan was to skim the head before the next race. He took the head off and looked to see if the port job had kept the runners cleaner. That’s when he noticed that the valves were not the right ones. He had installed valves from the other motor he had on the bench. They were titanium valves from a different make and model bike. The length and valve head diameters were exactly the same. After a little trial and error (And a lot of phone calls to race shops) he learned that the lighter valves were less prone to "floating" or "Flutter". This allowed a more positive opening and closing of the valves. The port job had smoothed the power curve but the valves allowed for a strong response to throttle openings. I hope I described that right. The end result was better drive off the corners and a higher speed with the same gearing he was already using.
OK it was a long write up to get to a short point. I...we need to improve the breed and if we want to do that we have to stop relying on "Bolt On" parts from shady sources. We are smart enough to find parts that are already available and to adapt them to our rides. There’s going to be some mistakes and some motor’s are going to get lunched but in the end nobody can say we are the junk boys on the block. What do you think?
Swheels:Funny you should bring this up.Cuase i was thinking of making a connecting rod for my motor.And making it out of alu but i wasn't sure of how it would hold up?Plus i was going to knife edge it to loose weight plus cut down the turbulence in the crank case.Thus would create higher rpms.You know somewhere out there is a fuel injection system that would and will work with our little motors.That doesn't cost an arm and a leg.Maybe some rocker arms made out of alu with a roller bearing to ride on the cam lobes.OOH a water cooled conversion kit.But that one might be costly?OOh just got another idea knife edge the leading sides of the crank then balance it.
Nutty:Wipe your mouth Swheels you're drooling again. I'm getting what I think are good ideas and sound principle from this site.
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/ind...d66dadecda47c8
I just barely started to cruise through and I'm seeing it's going to be a lot of reading because I keep finding threads I like.
Rene:I have been using parts for a honda monkey.
MackDaddy:lol same here and crf50 but ye this water cooled idea sounds good
Nutty:One other idea I like to throw in which might boost this along. If you have an idea but don't have the money, talent, or time (There I go talking about myself again) to get it going throw it on the plate. Maybe someone else will run with the idea and get it going or even put it to use. That's sharing the wealth even if you money poor (Sounds like me again).
Giverrr:If I had access to a lathe and milling machine etc or a CNC router, I would machine a piston and connecting rod from billet titanium. I know I can't forge it but it should still be strong given the inherent tinsel strength properties or this metal and the force exerted is always going to be on it's lengthwise axis. After that I would drill the rod and heat it and using a hydraulic press insert a deep frozen carbon rod down the center. That should be good strong. Is anyone here a machinist? This would be a fun project.
Nutty:giverrr cool idea on the connecting rod, but...I read somewhere about Ti pistons and the fact that Ti does not have the right property's for the job? Can you or do you know what I'm talking or give the reasons to use it over aluminum. I'm not bashing just asking?
90GTVert:Everyone already uses CFR50/XR50 etc... parts, even if they didn't know it. Knife-edging still won't be super cheap by the time you get the rotating assembly balanced and replace gaskets etc... I would wait on that until you are already modded pretty far, and running out of options, unless you just want to try for the heck of it.
It depends what power you are really looking for. Do you want to go 100mph like rkfinch, and do it cheap (good luck with that)? Do you just want enough power to pull pretty well out of turns and on straights?
The old saying is true for us, there is no replacement for displacement. Some would argue that a turbo is a replacement, but that has not been done very efficiently for a reasonable price. Nitrous is also sometimes said to be the replacement, but it's not meant to be shot out of every corner on every straight in a road race.
If you want a good boost of power without spending a ton, look into big bore kits. If you want a substantial amount of power, get an engine with a longer stroke and a big valve head, and overbore that. Even that isn't always terribly expensive. If your goal is strictly to make power to race the twisties, once you get a 140+cc engine with good compression, you should be set.
If you want power that destroys all competition, get your wallet out. I don't mean to discourage anyone. If someone out there can start machining high end parts and sell them for an affordable price, more power to you. If you know a source of parts compatible with these engines, please share.
Redryderaus:Watercooled?? Here ya go!
http://www.lifan.com/en//product_lis...id=8643&id=883
Cheers,
red
90GTVert:I don't know if it has been addressed, but are there even kits out for the water-cooled engines? How close are the water jackets to the cylinder? I'm wondering if you can get much of a bore without getting too close to the water jackets.
Sphinx:giverrr has a good idea about a supercharger for our bikes, but like you said..it takes money.
I too am working on some stuff right now to help our bikes out. my buddy has a street rod shop and also builds 1/4 scale r/c drag cars using pocketbike motors. (these things are scary!!!) we are working with the racing suspension shop next door to improve our forks and swing arms. yes, pbu sells an extended swing arm, but what if you want it stronger but not extended? I haven't seen one yet? (please correct me if I am wrong) once we get it mocked up, I will let everyone know. I am not out for the money, just want to improve the "sport" and get some high quality parts out there for us! we are also working on improving the frames so they can handle bigger motors and people like me...6'2 and 245lbs haha
if anyone has any ideas. pass em on. someone might be able to make the parts we need. let me know if I can help in any way!!!
Giverrr:Yes I know what your saying. It may not be well suited to use in a piston. I think a reason why is it's too hard and may break with the inertia but that would only be a guess. Titanium is best suited to objects like knives and objects under pulling pressure, but fractures easily when it is struck the wrong way. But making connecting rods with titanium I think is a great idea because the energy is always on the same axis. It's super light weight and strong and parts could be make thinner and lighter.
Swheels:Quote:
Originally Posted by 90GTVert
Everyone already uses CFR50/XR50 etc... parts, even if they didn't know it. Knife-edging still won't be super cheap by the time you get the rotating assembly balanced and replace gaskets etc... I would wait on that until you are already modded pretty far, and running out of options, unless you just want to try for the heck of it.
It depends what power you are really looking for. Do you want to go 100mph like rkfinch, and do it cheap (good luck with that)? Do you just want enough power to pull pretty well out of turns and on straights?
The old saying is true for us, there is no replacement for displacement. Some would argue that a turbo is a replacement, but that has not been done very efficiently for a reasonable price. Nitrous is also sometimes said to be the replacement, but it's not meant to be shot out of every corner on every straight in a road race.
If you want a good boost of power without spending a ton, look into big bore kits. If you want a substantial amount of power, get an engine with a longer stroke and a big valve head, and overbore that. Even that isn't always terribly expensive. If your goal is strictly to make power to race the twisties, once you get a 140+cc engine with good compression, you should be set.
If you want power that destroys all competition, get your wallet out. I don't mean to discourage anyone. If someone out there can start machining high end parts and sell them for an affordable price, more power to you. If you know a source of parts compatible with these engines, please share.
Nah i don't wanna do 100mph.If i need to a strong 70mph.I just wanna try it to see.Iv'e done this in the past to the motors on my 1/5 rc bikes.The difference was night and day.The little engines would scream like the were going to pop.LOL The bikes would hual @$$
Quote:
Originally Posted by redryderaus
Watercooled?? Here ya go!
http://www.lifan.com/en//product_lis...id=8643&id=883
Cheers,
red
Yeah we can't get them unless a bulk buy.Plus i was thinking if they made kits.They might make it in big bore sizes 140,146cc Oh that would be sweet.
Nutty:Skins got a thread here on a 162-168? Something or other. I also read about KLX 180 motors? There's the displacement. I'm sure that pushing the Mids toward the quality of "Some" of the pockets is the way to go. Then modification as the buyer see's fit. BUT not $2-$3000 for one base price! I think we can keep the price down but smoke them (NSR YSR DERBI METRAKIT) if we want with a little innovation. I love the idea of the ugly cousin beating the snooty rich kid. Oh Red if you know were we can get the watercooled motor let us know.
Nutty:I’ve been reading over and over again about the lack of umph from the stock motors. So I’ve been driving around on the web looking for tech we can adopt or at least get a few idea’s from. One of the first things I learned is that lightening the internal moving parts is the first thing race engine builders do to gain some horses. I read through a Formula One site for a few tricks from the masters. A thread I thought hit the nail on the head was about the material that makes up a connecting rod. Titanium is the metal of chose because they can not use beryllium or carbon fiber. The thread started as a discussion about aluminum as a connecting rod. It went on to say that motorcycles have already been produced with aluminum.
"Old Triumph 650s had aluminum con rods. Production Honda NSX has Ti con rods. Virtually all other road cars use high strength steel."
In the end what I trying to get across is we can’t expect to buy anything from Japan or be able to afford it for that matter. But designing and making the parts is basically out of the question. Unless someone in here has some seriously mad skills...I think I heard a pin drop. The Final Option (That was a great movie) is to find parts that will interchange with our little super bikes. What I mean is this-A friend of mine was working on a race bike rebuild and he had a second engine torn down on the same bench. It was the night before he had to leave for the track if he wanted to be on time. He had to reassemble the head he had just ported and polished. He put the head together and placed it on a engine already on a trolley he carried to the track (He got tired of last minute repairs to a motor on the ground) and rolled it into the trailer. He was planning on finishing at the track when he had more help. When he got to the point of install he remember he hadn’t degree the cams so he had his buddy set it at a pre-determined point. The buddy stopped after he took off the cam cover and asked what kind of valves had been installed because they didn’t look right. My bud blow him off and told him they were running out of time. Bike was put together and he raced the whole weekend. He later said that he was amazed at the rebuild it felt like a completely different bike. The power can on sharper? His next plan was to skim the head before the next race. He took the head off and looked to see if the port job had kept the runners cleaner. That’s when he noticed that the valves were not the right ones. He had installed valves from the other motor he had on the bench. They were titanium valves from a different make and model bike. The length and valve head diameters were exactly the same. After a little trial and error (And a lot of phone calls to race shops) he learned that the lighter valves were less prone to "floating" or "Flutter". This allowed a more positive opening and closing of the valves. The port job had smoothed the power curve but the valves allowed for a strong response to throttle openings. I hope I described that right. The end result was better drive off the corners and a higher speed with the same gearing he was already using.
OK it was a long write up to get to a short point. I...we need to improve the breed and if we want to do that we have to stop relying on "Bolt On" parts from shady sources. We are smart enough to find parts that are already available and to adapt them to our rides. There’s going to be some mistakes and some motor’s are going to get lunched but in the end nobody can say we are the junk boys on the block. What do you think?
Swheels:Funny you should bring this up.Cuase i was thinking of making a connecting rod for my motor.And making it out of alu but i wasn't sure of how it would hold up?Plus i was going to knife edge it to loose weight plus cut down the turbulence in the crank case.Thus would create higher rpms.You know somewhere out there is a fuel injection system that would and will work with our little motors.That doesn't cost an arm and a leg.Maybe some rocker arms made out of alu with a roller bearing to ride on the cam lobes.OOH a water cooled conversion kit.But that one might be costly?OOh just got another idea knife edge the leading sides of the crank then balance it.
Nutty:Wipe your mouth Swheels you're drooling again. I'm getting what I think are good ideas and sound principle from this site.
http://www.f1technical.net/forum/ind...d66dadecda47c8
I just barely started to cruise through and I'm seeing it's going to be a lot of reading because I keep finding threads I like.
Rene:I have been using parts for a honda monkey.
MackDaddy:lol same here and crf50 but ye this water cooled idea sounds good
Nutty:One other idea I like to throw in which might boost this along. If you have an idea but don't have the money, talent, or time (There I go talking about myself again) to get it going throw it on the plate. Maybe someone else will run with the idea and get it going or even put it to use. That's sharing the wealth even if you money poor (Sounds like me again).
Giverrr:If I had access to a lathe and milling machine etc or a CNC router, I would machine a piston and connecting rod from billet titanium. I know I can't forge it but it should still be strong given the inherent tinsel strength properties or this metal and the force exerted is always going to be on it's lengthwise axis. After that I would drill the rod and heat it and using a hydraulic press insert a deep frozen carbon rod down the center. That should be good strong. Is anyone here a machinist? This would be a fun project.
Nutty:giverrr cool idea on the connecting rod, but...I read somewhere about Ti pistons and the fact that Ti does not have the right property's for the job? Can you or do you know what I'm talking or give the reasons to use it over aluminum. I'm not bashing just asking?
90GTVert:Everyone already uses CFR50/XR50 etc... parts, even if they didn't know it. Knife-edging still won't be super cheap by the time you get the rotating assembly balanced and replace gaskets etc... I would wait on that until you are already modded pretty far, and running out of options, unless you just want to try for the heck of it.
It depends what power you are really looking for. Do you want to go 100mph like rkfinch, and do it cheap (good luck with that)? Do you just want enough power to pull pretty well out of turns and on straights?
The old saying is true for us, there is no replacement for displacement. Some would argue that a turbo is a replacement, but that has not been done very efficiently for a reasonable price. Nitrous is also sometimes said to be the replacement, but it's not meant to be shot out of every corner on every straight in a road race.
If you want a good boost of power without spending a ton, look into big bore kits. If you want a substantial amount of power, get an engine with a longer stroke and a big valve head, and overbore that. Even that isn't always terribly expensive. If your goal is strictly to make power to race the twisties, once you get a 140+cc engine with good compression, you should be set.
If you want power that destroys all competition, get your wallet out. I don't mean to discourage anyone. If someone out there can start machining high end parts and sell them for an affordable price, more power to you. If you know a source of parts compatible with these engines, please share.
Redryderaus:Watercooled?? Here ya go!
http://www.lifan.com/en//product_lis...id=8643&id=883
Cheers,
red
90GTVert:I don't know if it has been addressed, but are there even kits out for the water-cooled engines? How close are the water jackets to the cylinder? I'm wondering if you can get much of a bore without getting too close to the water jackets.
Sphinx:giverrr has a good idea about a supercharger for our bikes, but like you said..it takes money.
I too am working on some stuff right now to help our bikes out. my buddy has a street rod shop and also builds 1/4 scale r/c drag cars using pocketbike motors. (these things are scary!!!) we are working with the racing suspension shop next door to improve our forks and swing arms. yes, pbu sells an extended swing arm, but what if you want it stronger but not extended? I haven't seen one yet? (please correct me if I am wrong) once we get it mocked up, I will let everyone know. I am not out for the money, just want to improve the "sport" and get some high quality parts out there for us! we are also working on improving the frames so they can handle bigger motors and people like me...6'2 and 245lbs haha
if anyone has any ideas. pass em on. someone might be able to make the parts we need. let me know if I can help in any way!!!
Giverrr:Yes I know what your saying. It may not be well suited to use in a piston. I think a reason why is it's too hard and may break with the inertia but that would only be a guess. Titanium is best suited to objects like knives and objects under pulling pressure, but fractures easily when it is struck the wrong way. But making connecting rods with titanium I think is a great idea because the energy is always on the same axis. It's super light weight and strong and parts could be make thinner and lighter.
Swheels:Quote:
Originally Posted by 90GTVert
Everyone already uses CFR50/XR50 etc... parts, even if they didn't know it. Knife-edging still won't be super cheap by the time you get the rotating assembly balanced and replace gaskets etc... I would wait on that until you are already modded pretty far, and running out of options, unless you just want to try for the heck of it.
It depends what power you are really looking for. Do you want to go 100mph like rkfinch, and do it cheap (good luck with that)? Do you just want enough power to pull pretty well out of turns and on straights?
The old saying is true for us, there is no replacement for displacement. Some would argue that a turbo is a replacement, but that has not been done very efficiently for a reasonable price. Nitrous is also sometimes said to be the replacement, but it's not meant to be shot out of every corner on every straight in a road race.
If you want a good boost of power without spending a ton, look into big bore kits. If you want a substantial amount of power, get an engine with a longer stroke and a big valve head, and overbore that. Even that isn't always terribly expensive. If your goal is strictly to make power to race the twisties, once you get a 140+cc engine with good compression, you should be set.
If you want power that destroys all competition, get your wallet out. I don't mean to discourage anyone. If someone out there can start machining high end parts and sell them for an affordable price, more power to you. If you know a source of parts compatible with these engines, please share.
Nah i don't wanna do 100mph.If i need to a strong 70mph.I just wanna try it to see.Iv'e done this in the past to the motors on my 1/5 rc bikes.The difference was night and day.The little engines would scream like the were going to pop.LOL The bikes would hual @$$
Quote:
Originally Posted by redryderaus
Watercooled?? Here ya go!
http://www.lifan.com/en//product_lis...id=8643&id=883
Cheers,
red
Yeah we can't get them unless a bulk buy.Plus i was thinking if they made kits.They might make it in big bore sizes 140,146cc Oh that would be sweet.
Nutty:Skins got a thread here on a 162-168? Something or other. I also read about KLX 180 motors? There's the displacement. I'm sure that pushing the Mids toward the quality of "Some" of the pockets is the way to go. Then modification as the buyer see's fit. BUT not $2-$3000 for one base price! I think we can keep the price down but smoke them (NSR YSR DERBI METRAKIT) if we want with a little innovation. I love the idea of the ugly cousin beating the snooty rich kid. Oh Red if you know were we can get the watercooled motor let us know.